Hey decided on my list for NATCON
1 HQ with:
• 2x Panzerfausts and SMG
• 1 Panzershreck team
• 1 section of 2 x 81mm mortars
3 Combat plts:
• 2 full grenadier plts with Panzerfausts smg HQ
• 1 White pioneer Platoon with Panzerfaust SMG HQ and Supply wagon
1 Weapons Platoon:
• 1 x 120cm Heavy mortar platoon
3 x Divisional Support Platoons:
• 3 x armoured Sdkfz 11/7 20mm AA half tracks
• 2 x 8.8cm Pak 38/41 43/41 Anti tank gun platoon (had wrong number)
(upgrade transports to Sdkfz 7)
• 4 x Pz IVH
Which gives me :
4 motorised platoons out of 7 platoons. And this is 5 points under 1650 at 1655.
This whole list is designed on the fact that playing defensive battle pretty much means you half a Company vs whole company. Which against Russians and US armies is very severe. only on the basis that they get so much more armour cheaper.. and thus can swam an infantry army. But we have some tools.
Infantry plts can take on tanks and retain smoke screen until reserves arrive. May only field 2 to start with and leave the Pioneers as reserves.
To increase survivability a four Pz IV tank platoon gives massed fire and mobility for a first reserve. Or if attacking will make the spear point.
2 x 8.8cm guns will anchor any firing corridors or lines of sight for AT work.. need to be hidden from observers. Probably my a second reserve unit due to set up time and unlimbering. Cannot be ambushed.
AA halftracks are air defence primarily and added ability to move easily away from artillery zones… or to keep templates off of dug in artillery. Last effort anti infantry firepower too… especially against dug in infantry. Although the heavy mortars are for that.
Most missions I will be playing defensive battle which means ½ my platoons are off and have to roll for reserves at turn three.
Need to delay enemy and then rush in reserves. I will do this by keeping on the heavy mortars and pin infantry or reduce the tank count as much as possible. Especially tanks, as they will move and therefore be an easy range in target.. hopfully with top armour 1 on top and leave my H mortars a good chance of debilitating them.
PzIV ‘s were chosen over 1 Tiger tank for the entire survivability by numbers and the ability move much faster. It is assumed they will not be fighting anything BIG and that the 88mm heavy PAK will be dealing with those with both 100cm range and AT16.
Besides if I face a set of 20 odd late war T64’s with hte powerfull gun they will last at least one round?
In any attack mission the infantry will be pushing the ground. Most attack missions give all your platoons a start except for cauldron and breakthrough… so hoping weaken the enemy first piecemeal then close and assault. Will be tricky.
All up it is a decently balanced list. And usually don’t take this many tanks… 3 stugs is usually my limit.
Of course I had 5 Panthers in Invercargill a while back.. making me a laier
Well I don’t really play enough or know enough about german grenadier armies to offer much advice. It looks like a list though albeit not your usual.
Three platoons of infantry sounds good to me, and being a tank person I like the idea of the panzer ivs, and totally agree with taking them in favour of a Tiger, not only better survivability but 4 times as many guns.
Things I’m not so sure about however….
2 81mm mortars? …though I suppose if they can fire smoke…
AA half-tracks? Aren’t these things like most trucks easy points for your opponent?
PaK38’s, I like them but they just seem excessive to me.
If it were me, and it’s not, and I know squat, however I’d swap out the half-tracks for a couple of regular 88s for air defence that can double against armour. And swap out the PaK38s for PaK40’s stealing the points from the 81mm mortars if needs be to make it square.
Also I thought if you were going for a defensive army the less motorised you are the better to ensure you get the defensive side, so giving up mobility would assist in this.
Anyway thats my 2cents, probably entirely worthless but there you go.
Yes I have been trying different army compositions alot of late. Ever since I have painted stuff an not been able to use it! LOL
The 20mm AA guns on trucks are new to me too. The reason I have gone for them is that they are half tracks. I am expecting the AA to come on as a reserve probably on turn 4 or 5 after the PzIV’s. The alternative is to have three 20mm on the ground (or trucks). Thier advantage is they can be dug in for surviving artillery but otherwise have a gun shield. But when I play encounter or Godness forbid have to attack (probably a british infantry platoon stacked with crocodile tanks) I won’t e able to move them.
So I am gaining manovrablility and swaping a hard cover save for an armour of zero. Yes being shot at by a sherman I would survive longer being dug in.
Pak88/ 41’s They cost about 230 points which is about the same price as two stugs/ PzIV’s.
Please note these are the BIG guns not Pak 38’s These are AT16 FP3+ Immobile guns.
The reasons for me taking these are:
The range…. 100cm
The AT…. AT16 …. good bye Churchill’s, IS2’s, Elephants, Panthers.
Fear factor! … The will make the opposition hesitate in charging them for the fear that 4 automaticly penertrating shots could easily make a tank platoon make a test. FP is 3+. Except perhaps a russian T34/XX swarm.
Downsides:
Immobile…. need to hide the half tracks within 16″ to allow for movement and limbering to escape.
Artillery bait… The need to see 100cm but that means being seen by artillery spotters. It’s a risk.
Aircraft bait…. just like a tiger .. every aircraft called will want to take these out… just as well they are cheap and not 400+ points. At least the mortars won’t look much of a threat untill they have to roll saves or see the 3+FP work. But 20mm AA will be spread out to cover this. They have 2 skill rolls to knock out a aircraft.
Reasons for not swapping an 88:
I have to fix them … the bloody shields keep falling off.
Struggle to penetrate some expected Uber tank players vehicles.
Reasons for swapping an 88:
ROF3!
360 degree field of fire.. no outflanking.
Good At rating AT13
Good FP 3+
Same mobility… Immobile
Anti aircraft… 1 skill test, but long range!
So I would agree.. ther are more advantages with 88 than the 88/41
I may change to this… ???? Thanks
Defensive battle rule:
If you are an infantry army.. you defend against motorised, mechanised and armoured lists. The wheel count is left for accountants and process engineers. So I can have 2x 1 section platoons of infantry at about 200 points and then field the remaining points in 4 Tiger 1E’s or tw King tigers and some AA.
Yeah sorry, I meant Pak43’s or PaK43/41’s, you know how it is to be dyslexic with the numbers.
I get that they have AT16 at range and that that is a sure bet against any heavy tanks but, and I don’t know the answer to this, but how many of these monsters are you going to run up against? FlaK36’s and PaK40’s offer you AT13 and AT12 respectively at a total ROF of 12 and potentially 14 if you take the extra crew. Add to that your PzIV’s and you’ve got an incredibly strong AT component. What you lose in pure AT power (AT 16) you make up in the number of shells in the air.
Use the Panzers to flank the enemy tanks to get side shots whilst your AT guns force them to keep their front armour facing.
And like you say the mortars can chip in with their AT3 and it doesn’t matter which way they face for that. Croc’s only have Top AV of 1 and lets face it they’re really the only tanks aside from german stuff that you’re really going to have to work at.
I guess I’m looking at it from my british tank squadron perspective, where lets face it my guns are a bit rubbish, a lot worse than AT11, 12 and 13. However you make it up by, mobility granted, but also just plain numbers in tanks and semi-indirect fire.
As you point out your PaK43/41s are going to be of little use against a Russian tank horde.
4? AT16 and 8 AT11 (pzIVs).
However potentially 8 AT12 (pak40s), 6 AT13 (flak36) and 8 AT11 (pzIVs) is almost twice the number of dice, number of angles etc, which should be able to at least rough up such an opposing force.
Conversely that many dice/lines of fire should be able to deal with the relatively small numbers of heavies in your opponents companies. Something should be able to get a side armour shot and even if not you’ve got so many dice up your sleeve that something will roll a 1 which is enough to penetrate an is2 at long range with a PaK40.
Of course I could be just talking out my arse and I totally understand fielding things for aesthetic, historical or other ‘meta’ game reasons.
However from a purely game perspective I fancy the 4xPaK40, 2xFlaK36 combo over the 3xSdkfz11/20m Flak38, 2xPaK43/41 combo
Thanks for the comprehensive response.
I think your right on this one.
I agree the 36’s have it over the 41’s for ROF, survivability.
However for the Pak 40’s I have reservations…
Being:
Traditionally they don’t survive.. i.e indirect fire or basically getting blasted by tanks.
Mobility… I am going to be playing most of my missions with 50% of 7 platoons for three turns! If I take PAk40’s and PAk36’s they both will need a good position on board. If I’m bringing them on at turn 5,6 or 7 then there isn’t much use having them.
Tournament games are extremely lucky to last 8 turns. I know it is s much bullshit having delayed reserves… but most missions have it.
So I am left considering what platoons to keep on the table at start up.. which is limited to three or two with an ambush.
Also if the enemy has artillery, which if it is British or US I’m in trouble.. a foot of Gork, Time on Target, Stonk, booboo what’s it and a Kablooee will be pretty useful against three mostly stationary gun teams once they arrive on the table.
The range is what I was making a bet on using with the 43/41’s… the ability to out range your enemy on a sparse tournament table could be vital. If I am playing a side edge table and deploy up front two 88ATG’s I can practically reach the back of the table, opposite. With a Pak 40 front I have to sit back and take it before possibly breaking.
And what do you think is good AA and anti artillery.
Oh you know how it is, you start typing and the next thing you know you’ve written a story.
As I mentioned I could be talking out my arse, you’ve tournament experience I don’t.
That said since I’m offering a sounding board in some sense….
I think if you are playing most of your missions at half strength for a considerable period perhaps that’s how you should build your list.
What is absolutely essential for you to compete during those turns in which you don’t have your full compliment. With that in mind I think the FlaK36’s are even more useful because there multipurpose role as anti-tank and anti-air.
So if you don’t take PaK40’s for the good reasons that you’ve mentioned what can you take instead particularly if it’s something that is potentially going to come on late in the game and have only a turn or two to earn it’s keep or turn the tide. To me that sounds like armour, it’s mobile and it hits hard.
Well you make alot o sense for a story telling arse talker! LOL (Please note , even if you were a quietly spoken person the rules state you can never call such a erson an arse whisperer)
Yes the 36’s are looking better and better.
Still suffer the artillery problem just like the 43/41’s.
Also the AA trucks cost 80-120 points.. which isn’t much. And they are mobile.. which means they move well when coming on as a reserve.
Also it gives you more platoons… whis is both helpful and hinderance in a tournament. Because 1 it gives you some robustnes before going under half strength and
2. becasue it means you won’t ever gat all your reserves on untill the last turn.
I dealy you would have 6 platoons… this list has 7.
The heavy mortars are my uniti that I want on first. Mostly because thier range is good (140cm) vs 100cm direct from the 43/41’s. Assume most fast, medium or light tanks will probably cover the distance to close in 2 turns (if aggressive) probably looking to kill guns anyway.. or the two platoons of infantry. The mortars should destroy at least 1/4 of them.
Any woulded platoon in a tournament is usually then deliberatly hidden… so as not to conceed points. This is how I give the troops a fighting chance.
Still like the 36’s..
Hey I went to find the crew figers fo the 43/41’s and found them.. they were already painted by me over a year ago!
Having trouble with the Gun shield on the 88’s Want to pin them but they are already painted.
P.S Im in town on Sunday… will call in.
Yeah I 120pts is pretty cheap would be hard to find something mobile and effective for that cost. However if you drop the mortars in your hq perhaps you could stretch to a couple of stugs or such like.
I’m just not sure convinced that three trucks with 20mm aa guns is going to do a great deal coming in late in the game. Trucks are more mobile than infantry sure but they’re not really an offroad vehicle. I’d be leaning toward something with tracks or at least half-tracked/jeep rule that can really hit the table running so to speak and with something that can threaten armour and infantry. Remembering that you have a pzIV platoon as well.
and yes great, pop in, would be good to catch up